Sarah Bella:
Good morning everyone, and welcome to our, I believe it’s our fifth annual or our fifth monthly LinkedIn Live. I have new panelists with me today. We will go in order to my right is Meghan. Meghan, if you’d like to introduce yourself.
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Sure thing. My name is Meghan Dill-Meinzer. I am the legal services coordinator for Metro Volunteer Lawyers for the Referral and mediation program, and I am also a newly sworn in LLP.
Sarah Bella:
Wonderful, thanks for being on. Right below her is Ashley. Ashley, if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourself?
Ashley Adabahr:
I’m Ashley Adabahr. I am a licensed legal paraprofessional at Wells Family Law in Denver.
Sarah Bella:
Thank you. Just below me is Janet. Janet, if you could say hello to everybody and introduce yourself as well.
Janet Price:
Hi, I am Janet Price and I am an LLP and working at Modern Family Law.
Sarah Bella:
Thank you. Thank you all first for being on the panel. I’m really, really excited for this panel there. We were discussing a few things right before the live started and there’s some really exciting things coming up. Meghan and Ashley can definitely get more into that. Of course, Janet is always here with wonderful advice and wonderful insights.
Meghan, if we could start with you, I would love to talk to you a little bit about what your position is. I know that you are with Metro Volunteer Lawyers, which is one of my very favorite organizations. You’re not quite taking LLP cases yet, but you do have quite a significant role with Metro Volunteer Lawyers. Can you tell us a little bit of your experience as an LLP in that capacity?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Yeah, sure thing. I first just want to thank Modern Family Law for hosting this. Then I want to thank all of the LLPs who’ve volunteered with Metro Volunteer Lawyers historically and [inaudible 00:02:00] your time is greatly appreciated. Since been in June, my experience as an LLP has been limited to working with MVL as the estate planning coordinator. Then now as the client services coordinator for the mediation and referral programs.
Prior to that, I was also working as a family law paralegal for a domestic relations firm in Denver. I guess next to lived experiences, my time working as a paralegal and then also in preparation to become an LLP informs my present position as a legal services coordinator. That many of the cases that MVL accepts are family law cases. They address really up to and including all services that fall under Rule 207.1. Then I will be taking LOP cases with MVL in 2025.
Sarah Bella:
That’s very, very exciting to hear. I know we were talking a little bit about it off-screen, but LLPs I believe are mandated to have pro bono cases and I’m looking forward to it. We were talking about the billing and how we are out here to bridge the gap. How do you feel like this program will help the access to justice and bridge that gap with the pro bono work the LLPs can do?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Absolutely. Just a brief background about Metro Volunteer Lawyers. Metro Volunteer Lawyers is the pro bono arm of the Colorado Bar. We serve the lowest income Coloradans. That means they earn less than 250% of the income threshold for the federal poverty level. We’re working with people that are experiencing a lot of different challenges.
As far as bridging the gap, MVL has volunteer opportunities for LLPs, attorneys, mediators law students in several civil legal matters including family law, estate planning, [inaudible 00:04:12] guardianship and conservatorship. We also do consumer and financial, bankruptcy, public benefits and housing.
Specifically for LLPs though, you can work with the mediation program, the referral program, family law court program, family law advice and guidance program. The estate planning program and then at the Denver Indian Center, which is a program that will address every type of law. It’s on a walk-in basis there.
Sarah Bella:
Wonderful, I’ve done quite a few of them and I can tell you I’ve said it a million times, this is the best experience an LLP can get. You’re sitting through actual consultations, you’re dealing with issues in real time. Sometimes you have to pivot and there’s always help available for you. I know that you mentioned you’re looking for some more attorneys to volunteer as mentors. So excited to see what’s coming in the new year for that. Speaking of new things, what are your thoughts on the Texas launch of its LLP program?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
I think it’s another great tool in the access to Justice Toolbox. They’re really following in the trailblazing efforts of Colorado, Utah, Washington and Arizona, among others that are trying to launch similar programs. Sadly, on November 4th, the Supreme Court of Texas issued a delay in an order for the effective date for the proposed rules.
That said, I think it’ll get there. It’s not there just yet. In my research I learned a couple cool things about their program. In addition to legal paraprofessionals, they also have something called a legal court access assistant. They will take the same exam to my understanding. First of all, the LLPs have a broader scope so they can practice in family law, estate planning, probate, consumer debt.
As well as justice court cases, which I’m not entirely sure what those cases consist of, but the court access assistant, they will be able to work within the courts and will be sponsored by approved legal assistance organizations to appoint them to work within the court system. I thought that that was really interesting as well.
I think Colorado and many other states, there is some pushback. I think that they’re trying to address that before they’re able to launch that and launch the exam.
Sarah Bella:
Of course and I don’t think pushback is ever necessarily a negative thing. It gives us an idea of where the concerns are coming in so we can address them. The fact that they’re delaying, I think Colorado delayed for quite a while and then came about one program was sunsetted and then the LLP came on board.
Cheering for Texas, wonderful things are coming. 2025 is going to be great for LLPs. Our new LLPs will be sworn in at that point. We’ll have a whole new flood and I think there’s going to be a whole other round. Is that correct? Do we know dates for the 2025 stuff anyone?
Janet Price:
April is the first testing date.
Sarah Bella:
Wonderful, that’s great. It’s just picking up speed and if it expands Texas’s, that’s going to be wonderful. If it just improves in family law, that’s going to be wonderful as well. Meghan, thank you. Thank you so much for all of that information. We’re very excited to see what’s coming down the pipeline for Metro Volunteer Lawyers and yourself in 2025.
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Thank you.
Sarah Bella:
Ashley, you just recently did the collaborative training and I know there’s a lot of LLPs out there who are very, very interested in that program. Some of us did not do the last training for different reasons and are planning on doing the next collaborative training. Can you give us some insights on how you think the collaborative world will align with the LLP world?
Ashley Adabahr:
I want to encourage all the LLPs to check out the collaborative training as a paralegal. I worked on collaborative cases for years with my boss. She did a ton of collaborative cases, so I got to see what those types of cases look like where you’re not in such an adversarial posture with the other side. I find those cases to have been just such a better outcome for families.
Obviously, there’s no case that has no conflict. People are getting divorced for a reason, but there’s a different approach in the collaborative context to how those cases are handled. Instead of being for just one party and trying to get the best outcome for them possible, you’re really coming to the table with both sides and everyone is trying to come to a resolution that works for everyone.
The end goal of that process is that the parties walk away from that feeling like they were so empowered to get the outcome that was good for everyone so they can move forward and co-parent and coexist without this huge litigation in the rearview mirror. I encourage everyone to check it out. It was a two-day training.
It was a lot about shifting of the paradigm. The paradigm of where advocates for one party, we go to court if necessary, that sort of litigated posture to a little bit of a Kumbaya, but let’s all sit around and try to find resolutions that are really positive and really positive outcomes there. It will be another collaborative training I believe coming up I’ve heard in February maybe.
There was an advanced training that was cancelled, but I’m hoping there’ll be some more advanced trainings. The Colorado Collaborative Divorce Professionals website, you can check out. There’s events on there. I just recently had myself added to that as a collaborative professional, which is exciting. Currently, the Uniform Collaborative Law Act does not specifically state that LLPs can do collaborative cases.
We were accepted by CCDP and they did pass a resolution that allows us to practice this collaborative professionals, but we are going to need the act to be revisited. I have worked on some redlining in that. It’s been submitted. We’re hoping that that will be brought before the legislative session coming up in 2025 and that we will be fully in the ACT as of next year so we can move forward.
Sarah Bella:
Wonderful, that sounds really positive. Can you get a little bit more into the insights that you gain from this training specifically that were different than what you’ve experienced as a paralegal or an LLP?
Ashley Adabahr:
I think it really like I was saying, they really harp on this idea of a paradigm shift. For LLPs, I think it’s a lot easier for us to make that shift than it is for a lot of attorneys. That’s what I experienced sitting in the room. There was only two LLPs in the room, by the way, in this training. Attorneys coming at this, having litigated for I don’t know, many, many years are really used to one particular style of practice.
Which is, “I’m an advocate for my client. I’m trying to get the best outcome for my client and want to get them what they need and what they want and that’s my job.” In the collaborative context, that’s not really necessarily your job. Your job is to go and to allow your client to have your support and to understand the law.
To understand their rights while balancing that with making sure that everyone in the room is comfortable and that we’re not sort of threatening litigation, that we’re not trying to bring things to court. We’re not trying to horse-trade. We’re really trying to come up with a resolution that we’ve created together. It’s very creative.
I think LLPs as being paralegals, being in a supportive role for our clients, being that sort of therapeutic role allows us to ease our way into that, I think a little bit more efficiently than some attorneys maybe. Another aspect of that is my impression of our role in the legal field is to settle our cases is to not have our clients end up in court.
The court system is overburdened, it’s the judicial officer’s dockets are completely packed with pro se litigants who don’t know that there’s really any other option for them. Our role is to get them through this process, hopefully in a way that empowers them and is maybe an amicable resolution rather than a litigated resolution.
I think part of what the actual official collaborative processes is that clients sign on knowing that if they threaten litigation or if they decide to file and move to court, they have to actually fire their attorneys or fire their LLPs and start over. That encourages settlement because that’s an expensive and stressful proposition to restart your whole case.
I think as LLPs, since we can’t examine witnesses, we’re not trying to go to court, it really aligns already with what our goals are as LLPs. I think that’s really empowering for everyone.
Sarah Bella:
I agree. There’s so much when I speak to potential clients, they have no idea what else is out there. They’ve only seen just the litigation constantly redirecting them like, “No, you don’t necessarily have to go to court that’s a last resort, not a default. We’re not heading that way. We want to use it as our last resort if we can’t do anything else.”
I think you’re absolutely correct. Collaborative does align very strongly with the LLP mission. I hope there’s way more than two LLPs in the next training. I’m sure there will be. We will definitely keep everyone posted onto when that next training is. Hopefully, we’ll all be able to meet up there. Was that in an in-person training or was it virtual?
Ashley Adabahr:
That was an in-person two-day.
Sarah Bella:
Very fun. If you wouldn’t mind giving us your take on Texas’s new program, anything you can add on to Meghan?
Ashley Adabahr:
I think really at the end of the day, the real struggle that we face as LLPs in any state that operates with LLPs is just simply getting the public to know that we are this level of legal service that didn’t exist before. Each state that adds this program however long it takes, just adds some support for who we are as professionals across the entire state.
For instance, I feel like people coming from a state that have LLPs already to another state that have them would understand what we are and that we exist coming from a state that doesn’t have that, the more that we add LLPs across the country, the more that people will seek us out in any particular state that they’re in.
Every time we see it in the news, I’m excited because I think it’s just another way for the public to know what kind of access to resources they have in many different contexts. It’s exciting to hear that Texas is doing so many different types of law. I have seen that that happens to be the case in other states as well.
I’ll be curious to see if Colorado takes a page out of that book as well and allows us to do other types of law to help clients as well.
Sarah Bella:
That would be wonderful if we expand. Like I said, if we do great, if we don’t, we still have family law, we can do a lot of good in this area on its own. Ashley, would you mind just letting everyone know where they would want to look to seek out collaborative training?
Ashley Adabahr:
The Colorado Collaborative Divorce Professional CCDP, that is the organization that does the collaborative trainings. If you go into their website, you can also find practitioners. As we move forward and there are more of us doing this type of work, generally when you read the act, it explains in detail what that process looks like.
In order to participate in the process, you have to have a collaboratively trained attorney or LLP on both sides of the case. It’s helpful when you refer to the website because it will show you what all the trainings are, what all the events are, but also who all the practitioners are in different areas.
If you’re in Central Denver versus Boulder, you’ll see the LLPs that are out there, you’ll see the practitioners that are out there, and then there’s contact information for a lot of great people in CCDP that are so helpful. We’ll lead you in the right direction for the different trainings.
Sarah Bella:
That’s awesome. Thank you to CCDP for expanding this training and including the LLPs. We are greatly appreciative of it and we will definitely be probably taking over in the next year.
Ashley Adabahr:
Yes, there will be lots of us.
Sarah Bella:
There will be many, many LLPs. Janet, do you want to start with what your take is on the Texas expansion as well?
Janet Price:
Ashley made a very good point. I mean, it helps to bring out what an LLP is throughout because even in Colorado were new, but what they can do. I think it’s also worth noting just overall with Texas, even though they’re still working out everything that’s nearly a quarter of the states, they’re the 12th states.
That’s nearly a quarter of the states that have adopted this type of thing, which I think it just goes to show that it’s something that’s needed. I can see where it’s going to continue to go on and pretty soon it’s going to be an option in all states, even if it’s in different areas of law in Colorado. It’s just family law right now, but different area of laws other states do have the other area of laws. It’s like the new frontier that’s surging up.
Sarah Bella:
I agree. A perfect segue way into my next question regarding how you feel like Colorado’s LLP program is changing the landscape in broadening access in family law.
Janet Price:
It’s offering legal guidance, legal representation to a lot more litigants than before. It’s not always just the low income people that can’t afford to hire an attorney, especially in family law. All of a sudden somebody finds themselves, they’ve moved out of the mural residence, they’re now paying rent for some place else.
They’ve got all these other bills and stuff and something that may have been attainable before for them isn’t. Being able to go to an LLP, somebody who is at a lower rate, gives them what they need at a much more affordable cost.
Sarah Bella:
That’s great. We have a question on the chat. How has it been conducting consults with families and informing them how LLPs can potentially help their cases? This is open to all.
Janet Price:
I have gotten, when I’ve done consults both ways, we’ve had people at least at this firm call in specifically for LLPs. We take that, they already have some background, at least they know what an LLP is because that’s what they asked for. For other clients. I have found that I always identify myself as an LLP for a lot of other clients.
I have to explain when an LLP, the limited services that I can provide, a lot of them are on board with it and they like that idea. I have yet to come across a potential client who has said, “No, I really want an attorney.” That’s been refreshing to see that.
Sarah Bella:
Yeah, that’s great. I think I’ve said it a few times, I’m like, “I think you need an attorney.” Those are in the cases where it is extremely contentious. There’s already hearings coming up or in process that have been scheduled, and there’s always the option to have LLP and have the attorney step in, do the trial, do the hearing, and then the LLP takes it back over.
There’s never a point in time where we have to jump off a case or we abandon a client to someone they don’t know. I always make that really clear to my clients just in case something does come up that’s outside my scope, there’s an entire team of attorneys waiting to help us.
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
I’d also note that Modern Family also has a lot of really good tools on your website that really lines up what an LLP can do versus what an attorney can do.
Sarah Bella:
Yes, we do have quite a few. We have a calculator. We have a lot of different information on our homepage that leads clients through the process. There’s another question, “Does it ever make sense for an existing client to transfer to an LLP?” Yes, that’s happened on several cases.
Janet Price:
Yeah, as a matter of fact [inaudible 00:21:18]
Ashley Adabahr:
Go ahead.
Janet Price:
… we’ve even had clients with potential or I’m sorry, attorneys talking to potential clients saying, “Hey, we have LLPs and I think your case would be really well suited for them.” I’ve had cases transferred over to me that way as well.
Sarah Bella:
I have as well. Our attorneys are really looking out for client’s best interest. If it’s not something that’s extensive on my end where I was saying, “You do need an attorney, in turn, our attorneys are saying, no, you need an LLP.” It’s a great give and take at our firm. I hope other firms are on board and doing the same. Meghan Ashley, can you?
Ashley Adabahr:
Yeah, I’ve had the same experience. As soon as I was sworn in June, I entered into a ton of cases that I was previously paralegaling on. The clients knew that this was coming down the pike, and some of them had signed up essentially for that hope in the future that I could run their case for them.
At a much lower rate for one, and two to be able to go to mediation with them. Most of the clients we bring in, as far as I can tell, are really looking to settle their cases. When I tell them, “Look, I’m not a litigator. I’m not going to be able to go to court and examine witnesses or any of that, they’re fine with that like Janet was saying. I think ultimately most of the clients I deal with, they don’t want to go to court.
A lot of them are very afraid of the court process. Even an ISC is terrifying to someone who’s never been in this process. When I tell them, my goal is to get an amicable settlement, a resolution of your case, let’s go to mediation, let’s see if we can get it done. The LLP is very appealing to them for that reason.
They’re not looking at me as some litigator who’s trying to bring them to court or anything like that. They have faith in that process and so I think LLPs are great for that.
Sarah Bella:
That’s a really great point. Meghan, I know that you haven’t quite taken cases yet, but…
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Well, no, I would say though, and I’m sure you can attest to this, that in the programs that MVL offers, LLPs are serving clients just as attorneys are from step one.
Sarah Bella:
Yep, very much so. Another question just to open up to the floor. What are some common misconceptions that are still floating around regarding LLPs that you are coming across?
Janet Price:
Every now and then I come as potential clients when they call in, they’re thinking that I’m just a document preparer and that’s all that I’m going to do is prepare these documents and then they’re going to go along, file them on their own and stuff. It’s way beyond that.
I mean it’s total representation. Again, I think that is working into what an LLP is because it’s such a new position and people learning what that means.
Sarah Bella:
Meghan, have you come across anything odd?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
I can’t speak to my personal experience as I haven’t taken any cases, but I will say in lots of my conversations, I think people have some misinformation in terms of what we can do. I’ve had in my previous firm attorneys trying to assign me cases that were certainly outside of that scope. I think it’s really just nailing down the scope of what LLPs can do that seems to be a misconception among the public as well as perhaps other professionals in the legal field.
Sarah Bella:
Ashley?
Ashley Adabahr:
I haven’t really faced any sort of resistance or any major issues as an LLP. Also, I think it’s just an education issue as a matter of the judiciary knowing what we do, what mediators, knowing what we do, other attorneys knowing what we do. That’s pretty much the only place I’ve had to explain what we do.
I’ve had an ISC in front of a family court facilitator, and I was the first LLP that she’d ever interacted with. She was sort of asking me, “What can you do? What can’t you do?” That sort of thing. Mediation is the same way where the mediators are still sort of learning, “Can you sign this agreement for this client? Are you actually negotiating on their behalf?”
For me, it’s been more of that kind of education where it’s just explaining, I’m representing this client, I’m here on their behalf and I’m doing all of this work and so you can look to me as their advocate. I think that’s really the part where we just need to keep encouraging the judicial officers to learn what we do and what we don’t do and the public in general.
We can explain to our clients what our scope is at the beginning of the case. I think it’s really other legal professionals that I’ve been trying to educate, and that’s the only sort of area I’ve faced any issues with so far.
Sarah Bella:
That’s very, very fair. I think we spent so much time enmeshed in 207 and learning and training and studying that we assume that the entirety of the legal field also has the same knowledge that we have about it. They don’t absolutely don’t learning a new language in a different dialect. It is fair that the education needs to be out there.
The courts have been gracious to me as far in my experience they’ve been very gracious. I’ve had a couple of court officers just refer to me as an LLP in the wild. I go like, “This is my first encounter with an in the wild.” I was like, “Okay.” It’s been good so far. I hope it continues to be good. We’ve been talking a lot about collaboration and being collaborative.
Do you all think that is the biggest impact LLPs are making in the family law area? Do you think there are other areas that we are impacting hugely in family law?
Ashley Adabahr:
I think we’re easing the burden as far as I can see a little bit on judicial officers. I think that a huge impact for us is just that clients often will defer to either saying, “I need an attorney and I can’t afford one, so I’m just going to default to going to the court and just having the judge figure things out for me.”
Obviously, the pro se parties and litigation is a pretty high number right now. I think our ability even to empower clients with information in order to allow them to stay out of court is our biggest impact. I’ve brought my cases to mediation. I’ve settled all of them so far, so fingers crossed that keeps happening.
I think just having somebody in their corner keeps them out of that court system and that as more of us, and we’re going to find out tomorrow if we have more of us, that’s very exciting. Next year, we’ll have another couple of rounds of us. I think it’s our ability to work together collaboratively across the entire community of LLPs and with other attorneys to settle cases and keep them out of court is a huge impact that’s going to help the judiciary going forward.
Sarah Bella:
Absolutely agree. Meghan, I know that you mentioned a little bit about how many LLPs are volunteering in Metro Volunteer Lawyers. Are you seeing a significant impact?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Absolutely. If you look at the sheer numbers and data that LLPs are helping clients and all of the programs, and then we’re having more people express an interest in the mediation program as well as a full referral. We’re seeing a huge impact in the community, specifically among the individuals that are clients of Metro Volunteer Lawyers in Colorado [inaudible 00:28:46]
Sarah Bella:
Janet, do you have any [inaudible 00:28:52]
Janet Price:
Nothing additional.
Sarah Bella:
We do have another question regarding the scope in the future. Do you think LLPs may take on a bigger scope of responsibilities in the future? Unanimous yes, I agree. Hopefully, it doesn’t expand too quickly and get too big for its britches too quickly. We can just ease into everything the way we’re easing into family law. I do personally hope to see an expansion. Any areas that any of you would prefer to see an expansion in?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Housing as well as eviction cases, there’s a huge need for that for sure. I think the LLPs are certainly capable of taking on many other facets of law.
Janet Price:
I think bankruptcy is one of those areas where an LLP could absolutely be beneficial.
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Agreed.
Sarah Bella:
There’s such a tie to bankruptcy and evictions and family law kind of can touch every other area of law unlike some other areas. It will be a little bit more expansive. We are just about at time, ladies. I just wanted to close out if you all could just give future LLPs, current paralegals, your advice on how your journey has been. Maybe what to avoid or moving forward with the scope may be, that would be wonderful.
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Sure thing. It’s my mission over here at MVL to lift up the LLP community and to utilize our skill set in order to help the largest number of people possible. It’s been a really challenging experience preparing to become an LLP, and I am aiming really high, and I’m just really proud to be part of this community.
Ashley Adabahr:
I would say that on a personal note, I’ve learned a lot about my own personal style from becoming an LLP versus a paralegal. I would say if you’re going to transition from one to the other, you start to come into your own, I think, in a lot of ways. You realize what your unique skills are that you can contribute to your clients.
You have your own practice style and you get to develop that, which is a really exciting experience. The other thing I would say is that I have become much more a part of the legal community in the last year than I was in the prior 10. I think a lot of that has to do with us getting our voice out there and our faces out there.
Also, us becoming part of the bar and CCDP and the Women’s Bar Association I’ve been able to participate in committees and really participate in the dialogue around LLPs in the legal community at large. This transition allows you to become even more a part of this community and it’s really exciting experience.
Janet Price:
That’s great.
Sarah Bella:
Janet?
Janet Price:
Just to add to that is trust yourself. I have had a couple of friends who said, “I like being a paralegal, because in the end, it’s the attorney that’s taking responsible in the end.” They’re doing all the work and they already know all the information and it’s trust yourself. You already know this.
You don’t have to have an attorney taking your back, but you always will have attorneys that are going to be there to collaborate with and everything else. It’s not like you’re jumping into a chasm. There’s a lot of resources out there. Get to know the other LLPs. We’re all very welcoming. Find a mentor, just go for it.
Sarah Bella:
Agreed. I just want to second, we do so much collaborating with our attorneys at Modern Family Law. We meet on a daily basis. We meet on a weekly basis. We meet individually. We have work hours. Yes, there are lots of people who are out there to help LLPs along just the way the attorneys when they were starting out were helped along.
Definitely don’t think that you’re alone, you’re definitely not. There’s so many resources out there, and if you’re thinking about it, just do it. Just do it. There’s plenty of room for you. Well, we’re right at about 33 minutes. Any parting words from anyone before we wrap up?
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Thanks so much for having us.
Ashley Adabahr:
Thank you.
Sarah Bella:
Of course, thank you to Modern Family Law again, for always supporting us and having our platform here for us to speak and to the collaborative training for including LLPs. We’re looking forward to that. With that, we will see everybody on the next live. Ladies, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you.
Janet Price:
Bye.
Meghan Dill-Meinzer:
Thank you.
Sarah Bella:
Bye.
